Debate with the usual imbeciles (some guy called «Vildechaye»)

On Harrys Place I engaged in a debate over this article;

 

Steve Bronfman    
  
 

People are always so eager to bend over backwards to defend Islam. A church isn’t being rebuilt at ground zero (after Muslims destroyed it) but no one seems to care. People always seem to defend Islam’s right to antagonise non-Muslims (eg Hallal KFCs, the burka etc) but not the otherway (Mohammed cartoons etc). The simple answer in this typical defence is Two Wrongs Dont Make A Right. You would not defend a statue of Herzl in Ramallah.

 
Steve Bronfman    
  
 

The simple fact is political correctness and cultural relativism cause leftwing commentators to defend replacement theology in Islam yet attack it in Christianity.

   

vildechaye  

 

   

I’d like to know how and why halal KFCs antagonize non-Muslims. That has to be one of the most ridiculous things I’ve heard since Western Canadians objected to the French language on their cereal boxes.

Steve Bronfman    
  

Vildechaye; because turning Hallal what were mainstream restaurant chains such as infamously KFCs and Dominos in Australia, schools and prisons in the UK imposes the minority needs upon the majority. Why should a British kid not be allowed a ham sandwich for lunch if they want, this is still a free country? It is creeping sharia! Hindu’s don’t impose their dietry requirements upon the majority.

Steve Bronfman    
  
 

Also vildechaye your analogy is flawed. A closer one would be to be told by your national mainstream supermarket chain that you could no longer buy that cereal because vegans objected to it. If there is a need for hallal food then since this is a capitalist system; start a new restaurant or business, don’t impose your beliefs upon the majority so that James Smith can’t order his hawaiin pizza on Sunday night. Rule by the minority on the majority is fascism.

vildechaye    
  

Steve Bronfman: Were you born an idiot or did you have to work hard? KFC doesn’t sell ham, just chicken, as far as I know. Now you’re dragging schools into it to buttress your pathetic argument, but my question and your comment was specifically about KFC. I don’t care if the chicken they fry is halal, kosher, or neither. And, I suspect, neither does anybody else.

As for the ham sandwich gambit, sounds to me like the Muslims are behaving like orthodox Jews — once they have strength in numbers, they try and force seculars to behave as they do (“white meat”, anyone.) Which is not to defend such practices, which I detest, merely to show they are not restricted to religious nutters of the Muslim persuasion. What is mostly restricted to the nutters of that particular faith are more serious crimes like murder, but that wasn’t what your ridiculous post was about.

vildechaye    
 

RE: What if a rising number of believers of a faith do not accept the secular law written very much by former and existing members of another faith?

Steve Bronfman    
 
 

I know I’m winning an argument when the name calling begins vildechaye. 1. Turning hallal meant KFC patrons could no longer have the ham in their chicken burgers they had previously enjoyed.
2. I brought in other examples because they are happening. The rest of your post seems to be a rant.

 
Steve Bronfman    
 
 

vildechaye then says he doesn’t care what type of chicken he gets; the point is alot of people do, it’s not upto you to impose your dietry belief or lack thereof upon others anymore than Muslims can impose hallal upon me.

You then state Jews impose there dietry beliefs upon others. Please give examples of this outside Israel (we are talking about hallal imposed in the west upon the majority). Your statement that you detest this (mythical example of Jews. Imposing kosher meat upon Christians) seems at odds with your defense of the imposition of hallal food on non Muslims elsewhere in the thread.

Vildechaye    
  

Steve Bronfman: The only insult was to your intelligence. You claim that non-Kosher or non-Halal people care that their meat is halal or kosher. That is simply not true. Not only do they not care, they wouldn’t even know. Chicken is chicken after all, whether it’s got the OK from a mashgiach, imam or whoever. So that point of yours is bullshit.

As for Jews/Kosher, yes, I meant Israel. It’s the only part of the world where ultra-orthodox jews have the numbers to impose/inflict their views on others — and as a non-observant ethnic jew i take exception to “mythical imposing on Christians” since they impose it on jews too. Though, in Montreal, they have unsuccessfully tried to have a local gym cover their windows because they didn’t like seeing women in track suits exercising. (I bet they did like it, but that’s another story).

I do agree, though, it’s wrong for any public restaurant to stop serving ham because a portion of its clientele (majority or minority) doesn’t want it to. They should simply follow the law of the land and serve whatever they want to.

 

steve bronfman    
 
 

Not on an Iphone so I can take this dude to task;

“vildechaye
23 August 2010, 5:01 am

Steve Bronfman: The only insult was to your intelligence.”

-You said, “Were you born an idiot or did you have to work hard? KFC doesn’t sell ham, just chicken, as far as I know.” Just showing 1. You have to debate based on name-calling 2. Your ignorance of the KFC menu and therefore the topic.

“You claim that non-Kosher or non-Halal people care that their meat is halal or kosher. That is simply not true. Not only do they not care, they wouldn’t even know. Chicken is chicken after all, whether it’s got the OK from a mashgiach, imam or whoever. So that point of yours is bullshit.”

-Actually some people really do care which is why Kosher meat is banned in Switzerland. Some people find the practice of slitting the throat of the animal and draining the blood to be animal cruelty. Again this shows your ignorance of the topic. Also, you can’t speak for anyone else without survey data showing whether people care or not. You’re missing the point however. The point is not whether the Chicken in KFC is killed “ethically” or in a Hallal manner etc it is when national mainstream foodchains ban non-Muslims from ordering part of their menus available elsewhere and in the past like KFC bacon Zinger burgers or Ham on Pizza’s at Dominos. This is actually a major issue disproving your assumptions people don’t care;

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/778962/Boycott-threat-for-chain-because-of-questions-over-Halal-killing.html

“As for Jews/Kosher, yes, I meant Israel. It’s the only part of the world where ultra-orthodox jews have the numbers to impose/inflict their views on others — and as a non-observant ethnic jew i take exception to “mythical imposing on Christians” since they impose it on jews too.”

-Again you’re missing the point. No one is arguing about dietry restrictions in Saudi Arabia this whole debate is about “creeping sharia” in the West. We are debating Muslims imposing their religious restrictions upon the rest of us in Western countries. There is just no examples of any religion trying to impose their dietry requirements en masse on the majority in North American, Europe, Australia etc except Muslims. This is very different from 76% Jewish Israel having Kosher McDonalds. E.g Whale meat is banned in the USA but sold legally in Japan much to our dislike but its really upto the Japanese Government to decide not a minority in Japan.

“in Montreal, they have unsuccessfully tried to have a local gym cover their windows because they didn’t like seeing women in track suits exercising. (I bet they did like it, but that’s another story).”

-Unsuccessfully. But there are now Muslim Women only swimming times imposed in State owned pools across the west banning Men from public spaces. This is “creeping sharia” and again I’m not talking about private business’s who can do what they like.

“I do agree, though, it’s wrong for any public restaurant to stop serving ham because a portion of its clientele (majority or minority) doesn’t want it to. They should simply follow the law of the land and serve whatever they want to.”»

-So what exactly have you been arguing with me and calling me names about?

 

Exclusive interview with a King David for our age; Elad Daniel Pereg!

As Much as possible I’m trying to conduct exclusive original interviews with some of the people the zionist (and others) activists that fascinate me right now. One such person is Elad Pereg who you may recall was the young lone zionist activist pro-testing in this famous video;

1. Tell me something about your background? How did you get interested in pro-Israel activities?

I am a proud religious Israeli Jew of Sephardic background.  I came to love Israel and stand up for what is right as a young child; it had a lot to do with how I was raised.
 
2. During your lone protest what were you thinking? Did you feel physically threatened at all?…
I felt secure and protected.  I did not think I was doing something too big, but I was getting a lot of attention from other protesters, the police, the media, people in their cars, etc.  People have strong emotions but I stayed calm and went with the flow.

3. Your protest was a bit of a metaphor for tiny Israel surrounded by many enemies. What would you suggest individuals can do to support Israel?
Stand up for Israel even when nobody else will like when I did.

4. What are your present activities? Tell me about your pro-Israel projects?
I want to build contacts in the pro-Israel sphere and Israeli politics.  My goal is to help Israel as a Knesset member, and each day is going down that path.  But it is not all about me personally.  I plan to work with others for future demonstrations and spreading ideas that have nothing to do with me personally.

5. Where you surprised by the support you received on the «blogosphere»?
Yeah, I never dreamed there would be this much attention.  Then again, who knew so many people would see it.
 
6. Do you think that the younger generation of Jews (in America) shares your feelings in relation to supporting Israel?
No, many have no connection to their people and see it from a non-Jewish standpoint which is a pity.  But there are many Jews who are like me in their dedication and accomplish great projects on behalf of Israel. They are of all ages and they understand that Aliyah is their greatest help and make it happen.
 
7. Have you received any anti-Semitic threats due to your protest/activities?
Not directly.
 
8. How fairly do you think Israel is treated by the mainstream media? If you like give me examples?
Very unfairly, but the world has always been against the Jewish people.  I am not saying anti-Israel is anti-Semitism but the root cause of the bias is that we Jews are treated differently.  «Neutral» sources to al-Jazeera portray Israel as the «bad-guy» no matter what the circumstances.  I could talk about some examples all day but they are pretty obvious when you see what they report. 

9. Do you have any groups you would like people to support eg organisations/your facebook group etc?
I am not affiliated with any organization for now.  If people want to connect with me they can, and I will be happy to work with them.  But people should stand for certain principles, like opposition to an Arab PLO-state in Israeli territory, support of Israel, and realistic Aliyah.

10. I loved how when they asked you if you’re affiliated with a group you said «Judaism,» what do you think of anti-Zionist Jews?
I love all Jews and so should all of us.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion and freedom.  There have always been Jews who have worked against Am Yisrael in our history.  I am not going to comment any further on that. 

11. In a nutshell, how do you think the Israel-Arab conflict can be resolved?
Not by a Terror State Illusion, that is for sure.  Not with terrorists from Hamas and Fatah.  Israel is here to stay.  I plan to work to solve the conflict, but that is not for me to speak of now.  That is for my political activism in a few years.
And thank you to you Steve.
Your friend,

Future Knesset member Elad Daniel Pereg

Turkey using chemical weapons on Kurds

Israel Matsav comments on Der Speigel’s report that;

 «German experts have confirmed the authenticity of photographs that purport to show PKK fighters killed by chemical weapons. The evidence puts increasing pressure on the Turkish government, which has long been suspected of using such weapons against Kurdish rebels. German politicians are demanding an investigation»

If this is confirmed to be true then it shows a number of things;

1. The barbarity of the current Turkish regime

2. The hypocracy of the world in ignoring Turkish and «Muslim-on-Muslim» crimes

3. How truly desperate the pright of the Kurds has become.

Please support the Kurds, boycott Turkish goods.

A ray of light

I had never heard of the Quilliam foundation before. They describe themselves to be, «the world’s first counter-extremism think tank set up to address the unique challenges of citizenship, identity, and belonging in a globalised world. Quilliam stands for religious freedom, human rights, democracy and developing a Muslim identity at home in, and with, the West.» For once there’s an Islamic group that seems to «get it». The don’t attack Al Quida on CNN while defending Hamas like so many other so-called «progessive Islamic groups.» This seems to be an organisation with one standard, a modern rational peaceful yet Islamic one too!

You can watch an interesting debate on SKY news here in which the Academic guest seems to totally miss the point in his effort to attack the foundation;

I wish Quilliam the best of luck!

The Devil’s advocate

I enjoy debate. Debate helps us find reason. It should be conducted free from emotion whereever possible. We should often learn to agree to disagree.

I engaged in a debate on Harry’s place about Rand Paul making some comments about his dislike of small government. Its not really my position but it annoys me when I see liberals bash (US) government when the Republicans are in power but lionise it as the beacon of all things right and good when the Democrats are in power;

Steve Bronfman    
  10 August 2010, 10:41 am
 

Racism in any form is wrong obviously but recently in England there was a case of a Jewish school being taken to court by a non-Jewish (half-Jewish) student for refusing to let him attend. If a Hallal restaurant only wants to emply Muslims or a Church of England fate Anglicans I don’t have a problem with it. This is really politically correct rubbish.

In relation to the Mine Paul is a typical small government republican. He has a very valid point. If the Mine owners don’t run the place properly they will have deaths, injuries, lawsuits, insurance issues and as he says, difficulty employing anyone. You sound like a Bolshevik.

James Bloodworth    
  10 August 2010, 1:13 pm

@Steve Bromfman “Racism in any form is wrong obviously but…”

 

AJ2    
  10 August 2010, 2:00 pm

Mine safety legislation & regulation equals Bolshevism?
I know that must be a joke but on Harry’s place thesedays its difficult to tell

steve bronfman    
  10 August 2010, 2:28 pm
 

Laissez-faire economics is at the heart of American capitalism AJ2. Suspicion of “big government” is a central tenet of many Republicans who see government interference as unhelpful with echoes of both Bolshevism and fascism. Paul’s point is that in the American system there are other methods of regulating safety etc besides government intervention.

It always surprises me that so-called progressives are happy to be dictated to by government. It is certainly a patronising viewpoint to assume that only government (eg the intelligensia) knows best, especially considering I will bet AJ2 never thought George Bush “knew best.” Paul’s viewpoint is Menshevik and optimistic. This debate has been going on since Plato. Please remember that the USA is not a social democracy it is a republic.

steve bronfman    
  10 August 2010, 2:36 pm
 

There are 2 ironies in people arguing against Paul. The first is that they are arguing that the American government knows best. Something I bet most people on this forum don’t do much. The second is the general irony that would they argue that the, say, Chinese government does a good job regulating Chinese mine safety. In light of the many casualties associated with the Chinese mine industry I think not. Besides being a tacit acknowledgment of how wonderful the US government is I wonder at what point AJ2 etc would “trust” a government to regulate an industry?

AJ2    
  10 August 2010, 3:09 pm

I cant think of a single case of market forces resulting in improved safety and working conditions for miners in fact quite the reverse. The history of mining in Britain from the mid 19thC onward is of mine owners being gradualy forced to introduce safety measures by government or its agents like the mines inspectorate. Its interesting that these measures were intoduced as Britain became progressively a democratic society. The Chinese government is of course not remotely democratic and cares little for its work force.

David All    
  10 August 2010, 5:25 pm

AJ2, what you say about the history of coal mining in Britain applies equally so to the history of coal mining and factory work in America as a whole. Steve Bronfman, I would much rather trust a democratically elected govt. to look after my interests and safety than those suppposed responsive market forces that you have such faith in. SB, you and fellow conservatives should really take a clear-eyed look at 19th Century Capitalism and the human wreckage it caused before you so worship the Market Place.

 

 

Steve bronfman    
  10 August 2010, 11:09 pm
 

Sophia the Republican party is split between 2 main ideologies; true conservatives who tend to be less insular and take a an interest in world affairs and isolationist small government types like Paul sr, Pat Buchanan etc. I don’t agree with the latter usually as they tend to come from the “Baker” “throw Israel to the wolves” camp. However while of course there should be government legislation regulating safety in the workplace this is not the only market force involved. Most of you guys would be whining if the Tories wanted to diminish union power in the UK but somehow champion government control in the USA?

David All    
  11 August 2010, 12:24 am

SB: Most American liberals do not believe in “government control” of industry. There believe in effective regulations, including safety standards to protect the health of consumers and workers that would otherwise be trappled over by greedy corporations as happened in the 19th Century.

Steve bronfman    
  11 August 2010, 1:07 am
 

Is you are indeed the spokesperson for American liberals David then I think they are really for “small government”. The second part of your statement is dubious ignoring a century of Heath and safety developments, free and instant media and other developments in the USA since the 19th century. Obviously a common sense policy should apply. This is a very similar ideological debate to Heath care in the US. To what extent will the capitalist system self regulate and to what extent should government intervene?

Hezballah’s cynical motives

This week we saw the Lebanon Army try to provoke another conflict with Israel by shooting an Israeli soldier doing routine maintainance within Israeli territory near the Lebanese border. The UN had been informed already that Israel was going to prune  a tree (blocking its view into Lebonon). There are a few questions to be asked like why at least 5 journalists were present on the Lebanese side? Obviously they  -and they have been shown to have Hezballah links- were informed that something would happen therefore the incident was premeditated.

This follows a pattern of course. In July 2006 Hezballah also staged an incident which led to the 2006 war with Israel. It was no coincidence that later that same month the UN was due to vote on Resolution 1696 in relation to Iran’s nuclear program. Iran is, along with Syria, of course the major supporter and founder of Hezballah (often called its proxy-Army in Lebanon). The Israel-Lebanon war took the world’s focus off the Iranian nuclear program. This week follows a similar pattern, a Lebanese Army brigade commander who is a Shiite and Hezbollah supporter (this link is worth reading) causes a preplanned incident (with with media already present) in order to provoke another conflict. Why? A UN report into the assassination of Rafiq Hariri is expected to be released this week and is said to implicate Hezballah (and Syria) in his murder. The ainsteam media not only were quick to (wrongly) blame Israel saying Iincorrectly srael had gone into Lebanese territory but also do not look into the reasons for either this latest incident or the 2006 war. No analyses beyong blaming Israel is required for the BBC et al it seems.

Expect more Hezballah pretexts to war with Israel shortly.

Daniel Pereg

Remember the flag waving heroic kid from a few months ago who single handedly took on a whole pack of pro-Terrorists in La? Well Daniel Pereg is back,

«Shalom,

I just wanted to let you know (if you don’t already) that I have formed a facebook account recently.  I never really cared for a facebook/twitter but now I feel it is a nessecary to connect with others.
Just so you know, it is a public, not private account.  I can connect with others but not contact people directly, see others’ profiles, etc. so it’s up to you to connect with me. I want a facebook more for connecting activism, ideas, efforts, etc. not for real personal relationships.  I would also greatly appreciate it if you sent it out to your friends so that I could connect with others so we can work together for the good of Israel and Am Yisrael.»

Exclusive Interview with Melody Sucharewicz

For those of you who don’t know Melody is, to quote her Wikipedia entry; «the winner of the second season of Israel’s popular TV show, The Ambassador, a reality series resembling Donald Trump’s The Apprentice TV format, though instead of business its theme is public diplomacy and political PR. Elected among hundreds of candidates. The aim is to choose, amongst several thousands of young professionals, a spokesperson for Israel. Rhetoric and diplomatic skills, social competence, coping with hostile media, and skills in creative political PR of 14 final candidates were tested throughout a series of international challenges (Uganda, Sweden, Russia, United States), later broadcast on Israel’s Channel Two. The three finalists of the show held speeches on their vision of peace at the headquarters of the United Nations in New York. Chosen as the winner by a high profile committee (IDF General Gil Regev, journalist Rina Mazliach, media anchor Nachman Shai), Melody traveled around the world as a good will ambassador for Israel for one year. Her activities ranged from speaking engagements at the European Parliament to media appearances, publications and interviews concerning Israel’s perception in the media and the Middle East peace process. Born in Germany (Munich) in 1980, Melody Sucharewicz immigrated to Israel at the age of 19, where she earned a B.A. in sociology and anthropology and an M.Sc. in management sciences at Tel Aviv University. After finalizing her year as an international good will ambassador, she returned to Israel, where she works with the Peres Center for Peace. She continues to work as a representative for Israel, with most engagements taking place in Germany.» She’s also very beautiful. Talk about a triple threat!

In an exclusive interview here Melody answered my questions;

1. Are you Jewish?

yes I am

2. Tell me about you,  your childhood, where you came from?

born in Munich, in a Jewish Zionist house. My grandparents from both sides are/were Holocaust survivors from Poland and Czernowitz –

my mother was born in Paris and my father in Poland but both grew up in Munich. Munich is a peaceful, quiet, organized safe haven and the capital of Bavaria. I had a blast there as a teenager, rebelling at high school against the strict Bavarian bureaucracy, surrounded by coolfriends, all of whom are still part of my life, and most of whom have already come to visit me in Israel.

I left Germany a few weeks after graduating from high school at 19 and moved to Israel.

 3. How was the political climate there specifically and in Europe in general towards Jews and Israel?

significant times I remember are the Golf War – I was in fifth grade and none of my class mates – I was the only Jew –

could understand my sleepless nights over Skuds raining down on Israel. There was always a lot of curiosity, always tonsf questions about Israel. Unfortunately, more often than not did those questions have an aggressive undertone. Over the years, after 100s of debates in the typical constellation: ‘neutral’ adult against Jewish teenager who most naturally is questioned if not confronted about Israel’s policies, I, like many others developed radars. Within seconds of such conversations does it crystallize whether the vis-à-vis is genuinely interested in constructive exchange and understanding, or whether he/she is looking for an excuse to channel out irrational aggressions against a country most of them haven’t even seen on a map. Times have changed ever since and so has the climate, unfortunately to the worse. The media is playing an increasingly crucial role in shaping European public opinion towards Israel, polarizing more than reflecting objective realites.

 4. Is it any better now or are things getting worse?

Delegitimization of Israel is a relatively new but gradually expanding phenomenon. The forces behind it were organized and sophisticated enough in their instrumentalization of global media NGOs to successfully distort the perception of Israel in the international community and its respective ‘streets’. This is a serious problem taking into account the globally rising threat of radical Islam. Distorting facts on the Middle East conflict inevitably leads to incitement, which in return facilitates recruitment to terrorist networks and establishment of sleeper cells in Europe and the US. Recent incidents like the Sauerland Group exposed in Germany in 2007 or the attempted terror attack at Manhattan’s Times Square last May.

6. Is the media against Israel in Europe and if so does this effect the perceptions of ordinary people? Why do you think the European media etc dislike Israel?

I don’t like to generalize. There are tons of print and internet media channels in Europes that are relatively neutral and constructive. Unfortunately, the Israel-bashing media’s sound-bites are louder and heavier and thus cause unproportional damage to the country’s global perception and indirectly to its security and quest for peace, i.e also to the Palestinians.

Why? Probably a cocktail of economic interests, anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist tendencies in certain industry circles, appeasement of local Muslim communities, the geo-political distance to the Middle East that perpetuates a high level of naivite by some European observers concerning Hamas and its radical Islamist allies in the Middle East and around the world, euphemizing of the world’s biggest threat today (radical Islam), and more.
 
7. Why did you choose to get involved?

 Because I can. Seeing the difficulties Israel is facing today, everybody who can should get involved.

Winning the Ambassador in 2006 was a fantastic trigger and door opener, but I was born with Israel in my heart and I will support its quest for peace, freedom and democracy as long as I can. 
 

8. What have you be involved in in terms of being pro-Israel?

 Lectures, talk shows, interviews, MC-ing events and demonstrations, all in all: public diplomacy with the attempt to bring Israel — what and how it really is – closer to the hearts and minds of people around the world, especially in Europe. Pro-Israel for me is pro-peace, i.e. pro-peaceful coexistence with Palestinians, so I also am involved with organizations who substantially advance this latter cause such as the Peres Center for Peace.

9. What would you suggest the average person does or can do to help the cause of Israel?

 Learn the historical, cultural, geo-political, social contexts within which Israel has been acting over 60 years – be informed on current affairs, visit here and there, and share what you know with those who know less. Other than that there hundreds of organizations around the world – especially in the US, who are happy about every single person who wants to contribute. From the AJC, the Israel Project, UJC, etc. in the US to ILI (I Like Israel Movement) in Germany, and many more.
 
10. Would you like to tell me about any organisations that people can donate to or help out with?

 The organization I know best from within and thus can judge best, is ILI – I Like Israel Movement, which was established by my father in Germany many years ago.

It’s a professional infrastructure all over Germany systematically increasing public understanding and support for Israel, for example, through an Israel Day that is celebrated in over 60 German cities every year: public birthday party for Israel in the respective city centers, with Israeli music, performances, food and flair.

There are tons of ways and channels to support, most of these organizations like ILI depend on donations to continue their work. The choice of which of them to support is very individual – some like to help advance academic research, others want to financially support action oriented initiatives in support of Israel or peacebuilding.